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[00:00:00] lucy: Hello and welcome back to another episode of For All Stages and Ages. Today I am talking with Alison, a nursery manager, regarding an issue that I think a lot of people are concerned about at the moment being that it is the month of April where a lot of parents are going to be finding out what school their child has gotten into and then obviously with September coming up as well they're going to be looking at nursery placements.
[00:00:26] lucy: So we wanted to have a chat with Alison. Who can hopefully give us some insight and some tips into how parents can help their children manage the transition from nursery into school or starting nursery for the first time as well. So lovely to speak to you again, Alison. It's lovely to have you back on the podcast.
[00:00:47] lucy: How are you?
[00:00:48] Alison: Thank you. I'm good, thank you.
[00:00:50] lucy: Perfect. So I think one of the main questions then, Alison, is can you walk us through some of [00:01:00] the differences that children might experience from transitioning from nursery to primary school, both In terms of their environment and the learning style that they might have, what would be some of the main differences that they would have?
[00:01:15] Alison: Obviously, at the moment, with coming into nursery, it's very different with children coming and going at different times. It's really getting the children used to that routine. They have to get up and to have their breakfast to be at school, ready for when the school doors open. That is one difference because, with nursery, you've got that flexibility of when the children arrive.
[00:01:38] Alison: The other thing as well is, we do have uniform for our children, but not all children have a uniform and we like the uniform because that is one way of us preparing the children for the next step in learning rather than having all these changes happen at once. It's a gradual process that way.
[00:01:55] Alison: And school uniform is a big factor for children. They've got, they can't pick and [00:02:00] choose what they want to wear. And But also PE, having to get changed at school and having those independent skills. We practice with them taking shoes and socks off and getting dressed for yoga sessions, again, helping them that way because it's a big change for them.
[00:02:17] Alison: They're going to be in school. For some children. May not have been nursery before, those that have might have only done shorter days. So it is a big transition for children and I remember when my little boy started school and he would come home and he'd literally fall asleep before he'd had his dinner.
[00:02:34] lucy: Yes, I completely agree. My little boy has been at preschool now for, he started in September of last year. He's four but you say about the school uniform he loves having his school uniform, and it's only a top with the logo on, but it's for him, I think it helped him a lot with settling into going to preschool because he, he knows that when he's got that top on that he's going to school, so [00:03:00] it helped him a lot with settling, I think, and he knows that when he gets up in the morning, he's got that top on, that's where he's going, whereas if he's got his normal clothes on, he knows that he's staying at home,
[00:03:11] lucy: you mentioned that it's obviously a big change for children, but it is A huge change for parents as well, and I wanted to ask how parents could maybe support their children who might be feeling anxious, but also how parents themselves can cope with separation anxiety
[00:03:30] Alison: yeah, it's difficult. You obviously know your children best. And what we would always say is sometimes preparing them too early, it is a long time until they're going to school. And so even when they find out their school places now, there'll be some parents that will choose not to tell their children yet that they're going to school because they know.
[00:03:51] Children don't understand concept of time, everything was yesterday and for children going to school, it's going to be tomorrow and then that anxiety is going to be there and [00:04:00] then they're not at school. Is it going to be the next day? So sometimes it's carefully planning when you have those conversations with your children and obviously knowing them best and how to pair them with that, but definitely parents as well, whether it's your first child or your third child, it's always the same feeling.
[00:04:19] Alison: They're going off to school, it's that next stage of learning, are they going to be able to cope being there all day? And supporting the parents with that transition is just as important as supporting the children. And, there's some lovely storybooks, that parents can share with children about that emotional attachment, a bag full of worries. It helps children to regulate their emotions and describe, I've got this feeling in the pit of my stomach and, recognise what that is and be able to talk about it. Also for parents, they may not be going with the children that they've been with at nursery. So a really good idea is when you [00:05:00] get invited to those transition meetings at schools, to connect with other parents and arrange some play dates so that at least then when you know your child goes to school, you know the children they're going to be with as well as knowing other parents.
[00:05:13] Alison: So it's not as daunting for you as well that first day in the playground, you've got other friendly faces around you.
[00:05:19] lucy: Brilliant, I know it was one of the things that I, found a little bit confusing when I was looking at preschool for my son. What is the difference between a nursery and a preschool? Is there a difference? And if so, what is that difference?
[00:05:34] Alison: Though, we still follow the same curriculum, the early years foundation stage, all nurseries or preschools. have their own visions as well and things that are most important to them. So it's really about finding a nursery or preschool that really ties in with your values and your beliefs and what you want for your child.
[00:05:56] Alison: We have a very strong ethos that you know the child comes [00:06:00] first and for us getting the children ready for school it's not all about knowing your A to Z and counting beyond 20. It's those practical skills that, life skills, being able to put your shoes and socks on, being able to ask for help, having that resilience that if you don't get something right the first time, you're You just keep trying until you do get it right because that's what you want for children going into school when they're going to be learning to read and write and making it fun for them, just taking that pressure off them.
[00:06:34] Alison: Whether it's a nursery or a preschool, they're still learning but it's in a playful, fun way. You might find the times are different. Some preschools, again, term time only, especially if they're attached to a school that's term time only.
[00:06:48] lucy: Thank you. Are there any activities or things that parents can do at home with their children before they start? Maybe in the weeks or the months leading up to starting [00:07:00] both primary school or a preschool or even a nursery to help ease the transition for both the children and the parents.
[00:07:09] Alison: Yeah, I would definitely say it's building on their independence. Things like putting their coats on and being able to do it their self because Okay, they'll go into school, ready, coat up, but once they've obviously taken it off throughout the day, they're going to need those skills to be able to, so it's really thinking about their shoes, making sure that they've probably got Velcro rather than laces that's going to be difficult for them.
[00:07:33] Alison: The other really big thing as well is lunch times. So if your child is having a school dinner. Just getting them to practice walking around with a tray, because that is a concentration skill. You know how easily children get distracted, so really good skill with half a cup of water on. And then if they're having a packed lunch, are they able to unzip their lunch box?
[00:07:56] Alison: Can they open a yogurt pot? So all those little [00:08:00] skills are valuable for when they go to school so that they can be independent.
[00:08:05] lucy: Brilliant. I know one of the about independence, one of the tricks that my son actually, he did actually pick it up at preschool. It was, I wish it was something I taught him, but they showed him how to put his coat on. And I'll link a video in the comments to it, but it was a really clever way of learning how to put your coat on, so they put it on the floor, upside down, so that the hood is facing towards them, and then they put their arms in the holes.
[00:08:30] lucy: And then they throw it up over their head like that, and then just push their arms through and their coats on. And my son came out of school and he was like, Mommy, mommy, look at this, look what I've learned! And he was so impressed with himself that he could put his coat on I'll put a little video of them doing that, I think it's a really good thing to teach them.
[00:08:46] Alison: It's so simple. Yeah, it's so simple to do, but this sense of achievement when they do it as well.
[00:08:53] lucy: Yeah, hundred percent, definitely. And, for parents that might be [00:09:00] nervous about sending their child to school or nursery for the first time, What would be some of the key questions that they should ask the nursery school or staff? Obviously I know they can have settling in sessions at nurseries and things like that and even at preschool.
[00:09:14] lucy: Are there any set questions that might be good for them to ask staff?
[00:09:19] Alison: Yeah, I think it's things like, a lot of children worry about toileting. And so it's making sure that, the child knows where the toilets are and helping them to know they can ask for help and who they can ask. So these settling in days that they do are just so valuable because not only are they building, friendships, they are getting to know their new environment.
[00:09:43] Alison: So it's key things like that. It's also obviously the parents want to know about lunchtime, if their children, what happens if their child doesn't like something. Are there alternatives? So again, sharing the menus with the parents and just, I think [00:10:00] a lot of parents worry about, their children currently sleep, they're not going to have that sleep at the nursery.
[00:10:05] Alison: Are there places where the children can have a rest, not necessarily sleep, but they normally have a quiet place where children can just take themselves. Because although they're going to school, reception is still very much play based. They will still have the free flow of activities.
[00:10:23] Alison: So it's not as formal as once they get to year one and it's very much table learning. They still very much have the flow of the classroom, so they'll be able to take themselves. To a space if they need in that,
[00:10:36] lucy: Is there a perfect age or a good age for children to start either at a nursery or a preschool? Because I know that a lot of parents that I've spoken to They all start at different ages because obviously they don't legally have to start until they're five to go to primary school. So I think there's a lot of misconceptions and worries about, am I starting them too early [00:11:00] or are they starting too late?
[00:11:01] Alison: it really is down to the individual child, how one four year old is going to be prepared to school is different, and our experience is shape us. There's a lot of research in Scandinavian countries, they don't go to school until they're seven, because that's when they believe children are more ready to start assessing that learning where it's.
[00:11:24] Alison: In the early years, they're still very much building on those connections and their brain is still developing. So there's lots of. Different theories and research of when is the right age for children, but as you mentioned, it is legal that by the time the term for their fifth birthday, they have to be in school.
[00:11:42] Alison: You have, those children whose birthdays fall on the 31st of August that have just turned four, start in school. And then the child on the first that sits home, that's. Just turned five in the same classroom. Again, everyone's self esteem, their [00:12:00] resilience is different, and you can have a just four year old that is ready for school, but it is difficult when, they are so young.
[00:12:07] Alison: And that's why in nurseries, we recognize, the summer born children are those that are most disadvantaged going into school because they haven't had as long, you As the other children, so nurseries are, prepared for this. We support those children, doing extracurricular activities with them to help prepare them for going to school.
[00:12:29] lucy: For parents like me, with children that age, is there anything we can do with our children to help them adjust going to big school or, into year one as well?
[00:12:39] Alison: Yeah, I think it's things like, a lot of children worry about toileting. And so it's making sure that, the child knows where the toilets are and helping them to know they can ask for help and who they can ask. So these settling in days that they do are just so valuable because not only are they building, [00:13:00] friendships, they are getting to know their new environment.
[00:13:03] Alison: So it's key things like that. It's also obviously the parents want to know about lunchtime, if their children, what happens if their child doesn't like something. Are there alternatives? So again, sharing the menus with the parents and just, I think a lot of parents worry about, their children currently sleep, they're not going to have that sleep at the nursery.
[00:13:25] Alison: Are there places where the children can have a rest, not necessarily sleep, but they normally have a quiet place where children can just take themselves. Because although they're going to school, reception is still very much play based. They will still have the free flow of activities.
[00:13:43] Alison: So it's not as formal as once they get to year one and it's very much table learning. They still very much have the flow of the classroom, so they'll be able to take themselves. To a space if they need in that,
[00:13:56] Alison: it really is down to the individual child, how [00:14:00] one four year old is going to be prepared to school is different, and our experience is shape us. There's a lot of research in Scandinavian countries, they don't go to school until they're seven, because that's when they believe children are more ready to start assessing that learning where it's.
[00:14:19] Alison: In the early years, they're still very much building on those connections and their brain is still developing. So there's lots of. Different theories and research of when is the right age for children, but as you mentioned, it is legal that by the time the term for their fifth birthday, they have to be in school.
[00:14:36] Alison: You have, those children whose birthdays fall on the 31st of August that have just turned four, start in school. And then the child on the first that sits home, that's. Just turned five in the same classroom. Again, everyone's self esteem, their resilience is different, and you can have a just four year old that is ready for school, but [00:15:00] it is difficult when, they are so young.
[00:15:02] Alison: And that's why in nurseries, we recognize, the summer born children are those that are most disadvantaged going into school because they haven't had as long, you As the other children, so nurseries are, prepared for this. We support those children, doing extracurricular activities with them to help prepare them for going to school.
[00:15:24] lucy: Okay, lovely. And I just thought about it because it was one of the Things, I'm obviously just going on my own, my experience now, but I just suddenly thought,. So when my son started preschool, his preschool is attached to a school, a primary school. Whereas my friend's son, who is the same age, goes to a preschool that is in a church hall and an independent one, basically.
[00:15:49] lucy: When we registered, the teachers from the school came and did a home visit and they came and met my son in the home and had a chat with us. My friend didn't get that and I was wondering whether [00:16:00] that's common for that to happen or is it just a school, preschool related thing?
[00:16:06] Alison: It's really important that all children get those opportunities to meet the teacher. And I've worked in day nurseries where, you know, and same as now, where we will make contact with that school. So we find out the list of children, which schools they're going to. We reach out to those schools and we arrange visits.
[00:16:25] Alison: We already have those really good links with the schools because we recognise how important that is. And then as soon as we know which children are going there, the teachers will come in, they'll get to know the children. They'll get to speak to the key person as well, so again they're gathering all that information and anything in particular.
[00:16:43] Alison: We've even had teachers come in and say, are there children that would need to be together so that they're getting that extra support because that's what they need, that's their comfort. Yeah, absolutely. All nurses and principals can reach out to the schools [00:17:00] and arrange those visits.
[00:17:01] Alison: The schools are more than happy because For them, the more information they've got, the easier their job will be in settling those children.
[00:17:09] Alison: We want the transition to go as smooth as possible. The smoother that transition, the quicker the child will feel secure and settled and start learning. And so all those people that are involved with the child, it's so important that they all come together for that. To share the information, what they can do, where they need that support, what they enjoy doing, so that then the child will just have that seamless transition.
[00:17:33] Alison: Photo books are really good, having those transition stories, showing the child, this is where you're going to be going to school, this is where I'll be waiting to pick you up, this is where you're going to be eating your lunch. So as much as you can prepare the child with photos, Of who's going to be looking after them, as well as what they're going to be doing during that day as well.
[00:17:54] Alison: I think having a calendar is a really good visual to help children with time as well, [00:18:00] and so circling the date they're going to be starting to school, and then crossing off the days before, so again they can visually see them getting closer and preparing them for that as well.
[00:18:11] lucy: Okay, thank you. And you mentioned it briefly then about when meeting the children, but I wanted to ask as well for parents that might have either a diagnosis or concerns that they may have a child that has some additional needs. Is there anything that they need to be aware of when their child is going through the transition between either starting nursery or going into a school?
[00:18:40] lucy: Is there? Anything that they need to maybe, the teachers that, they need any, if they're aware of any additional needs or support that their child has.
[00:18:50] Alison: It could be, starting nursery, that they've got an undiagnosed, non identifiable at that time when they start, and it's picked up later. Or, when they're [00:19:00] going to school that we actually know that they've got a diagnosis or it's in the process. What I always say to my parents is to go and visit the schools and meet with the SENCO, which is the Special Educational Needs Coordinator of the school.
[00:19:13] Alison: Because they're the people that are going to be working with their child. They're the people that can make reasonable adjustments and ensure that child's needs are met for their individual needs. Yeah, absolutely going to visit all the schools, asking all those questions and having been in a nursery.
[00:19:32] Alison: And if they've got an identified need, then they should have an educational health care plan in place, which is a legal binding document so that when they go to the school. It will clearly define what level of support that child will need and how much funding they'll get to put that in place for them.
[00:19:50] lucy: Thank you. Okay once the child is actually in a nursery setting or a school setting, how would a [00:20:00] parent, maybe if they've obviously not got the vocalizations that they need, At that particular stage for the child, how would a parent be able to tell whether their child is happy or not happy at nursery or school if they can't verbally express themselves completely at that age?
[00:20:18] Alison: Yeah, so it's looking at their learning and development, looking at what they're doing. They may not be able to verbally articulate, but communication is so much more than verbal language. The body language and gestures that children use. Can really give a good indication of whether the child is happy or not.
[00:20:38] Alison: In the morning, when the children come to the door, we let them in, and they're running through the door, that is a good indication their child is happy and in a place where they want to be. But I think it also, the carers. If your carers know your child well and, they're talking to you daily, letting you know about the little quirks and things that they're doing, that's a true [00:21:00] indication that they've actually taken time to get to know your child, and, your child's needs are being met.
[00:21:07] lucy: Lovely. And then, on the other side of the coin, is there anything from a negative behaviour point of view that parents should be? Aware of whether a non vocal or less vocal child that they need to look out for if there's anything Not right that they're not happy or that something's concerning them at school or a nursery that you know, they're worried about
[00:21:34] Alison: Definitely a change in behaviour, the child that's acting differently, they may become withdrawn and, Take themselves away from different situations or that, it could be the opposite end and they could become frustrated and, hit out lash out to show that they're unhappy.
[00:21:52] Alison: The key thing is, if you notice anything. A change in your child's behavior than to speak to someone about it to [00:22:00] try and understand, what is going on for that child.
[00:22:03] lucy: And then I think one of the other questions that a lot of parents ask is me as I said mine me and my friend We've got children that was similar ages when they started preschool and My son was toilet trained when he went to preschool, whereas my friend's son wasn't. And my friend was a little bit worried about it because she was under the impression that they, there's a little bit of a sticking point with some nurseries that they don't accept children in nappies is that correct? Or can that be a thing that most nurseries now they can say that they're not happy to take children in nappies?
[00:22:38] Alison: No, all children should be welcomed into nursery. They shouldn't be excluded for any reason. And it's just working with the parents, the children, especially those that are going to school in September. Working with those parents, supporting them. They may not even know where to begin with toilet training.
[00:22:54] Alison: And we are the experts, in the early years, and we can share our knowledge [00:23:00] and give them strategies to try at home, give them books to share with their children on toilet training. And also when they're in the nursery or preschool, they're going to see other children using the toilet.
[00:23:11] Alison: So it's a really good way to help them transition to the toilet because it may be something they've seen Mummy and Daddy do, but not necessarily other children do. It's working with those parents to support that toilet training.
[00:23:24] lucy: Lovely. And. If, because obviously we've transitioned into school, they, we've got a lot of other things going on in our lives as parents and, we have various different things that we're trying to do with our children at certain stages. Is there any advice that you can give for parents that maybe have already started the process of toilet training and then their children are transitioning into a preschool or a prime, a reception year school that they may be worried that it might, do they leave them in the nappies and let the nursery take the toilet training or do they continue as it is and hope it doesn't push [00:24:00] them back with the toilet training?
[00:24:01] lucy: Is there anything they can do or is it best to get them toilet trained before they go or just leave it a few weeks and start again?
[00:24:08] Alison: I would follow the child's lead. That, that's the most important. If a child's ready for toileting, they will show you by their nappies being dry for longer, or they might even start taking the nappy off themselves, so those little clues are a good idea to follow those. A child that's not ready for toileting, end up with is bagfuls of washing from nursery at the end of the day.
[00:24:32] Alison: That's no fun for you. And certainly not for that child, for their self esteem, they're the one that's constantly in the toilet, they're not enjoying their day at nursery. And again, it's just having those conversations, let's, maybe wait a few weeks and then try again.
[00:24:46] Alison: If you do it too early and that child's not ready, then it can set them back. You've got the children then hold themselves and that can lead to all sorts of complications.
[00:24:56] lucy: Lovely, thank you. And I suppose I've got a similar question with [00:25:00] regards to sleep patterns, obviously, especially for younger children. Babies obviously generally have their set sleep schedules, which I know nurseries can follow generally. The ones that are maybe one year and above, I would say, that are maybe transitioning a little bit out of, coming out of their afternoon naps.
[00:25:22] lucy: Or, maybe they're still having a nap in the afternoon and they may be starting pre school. Is that something that a pre school or a nursery can assist with? Is there anything that parents can do to help with that?
[00:25:35] Alison: Yeah, again, it's those conversations with the parents. It's talking to the parents about their child's sleeping patterns, and if a child's not going to bed till eight, nine o'clock at night, then it's saying, okay, have you considered reducing their sleep in the afternoon until you get to a point where you stop it completely?
[00:25:51] Alison: Because, if a child's staying up too late at night, again, they're not going to get their full night's sleep that they need ready for the next day. So it's really working with the [00:26:00] parents and doing it gradually rather than just cutting it straight away because that's then not going to help the child.
[00:26:08] lucy: Thank you very much. I think that was everything that I wanted to ask you, Alison. Is there anything that you can think that you would like to add that I haven't maybe touched upon?
[00:26:18] Alison: Nothing to add, but just to know that, they're not the only parent feeling that way with their child starting school and, to use people around you to, talk about your concerns and, enjoy it. It's a magical moment from your child after school, but don't forget the tissues.
[00:26:34] Alison: Children will pick up on it and they'll be the ones that are crying at the door, making you feel awful when you're leaving them, but they have the time of their life to put it on.
[00:26:42] lucy: Yeah, definitely. And I think it's important to, to let parents know, like you say, you're not the only one going through it and that we all have guilt about whether we're doing the right thing. And I think it's important to, you're doing the right thing for your children and yourself at that time and not to let that [00:27:00] guilt become a thing.
[00:27:01] lucy: My four year old, he still does it sometimes, especially after a holiday, like an Easter holiday or Christmas. readjustment getting him back in for, And he'll scream and cry at the door and it's horrible and I hate it because I think, if I leave him I'm abandoning him, but if I take him with me I'm essentially rewarding him for screaming and crying at me and I'm saying that if you do that every time you can come home.
[00:27:26] lucy: But I always get a phone call from the school literally before I've walked back to my car. Saying he's absolutely fine. He's off playing with his friends now. So he is doing it just because I'm there.
[00:27:38] Alison: Yeah, definitely. They like to make you feel guilty.
[00:27:41] lucy: Definitely.
[00:27:42] lucy: Lovely Alison, that's brilliant. It's been really nice talking to you again. I really appreciate it. Thank you for all your advice. And the books that you mentioned that there's like helping to settle into nursery and school. I will get a list off Alison and drop those in the show notes and for anyone that's [00:28:00] interested and we will be putting some information up on social media about transitioning from school or into a nursery as well.
[00:28:08] lucy: So hopefully if you have got any questions you can contact contact us and we'll help you.
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